Mohsen Abdelmoumen: Your very interesting book “The Apocalypse of Settler Colonialism” provides us with the keys to understanding settlement colonialism, which my country Algeria suffered so much from under French colonialism. Can you explain to our readers the objective reasons why the United States was born out of white supremacy, slavery and capitalism? And can we say that the United States is a democracy?
Dr. Gerald Horne: It depends on how you define democracy. Certainly, there is a « Golden Rule » in the U.S.–he who has the gold, makes the rules (not exactly what has been conveyed in Christian Texts). At a certain point Protestant England sought to join the colonial feast by ‘wrong-footing’ Spain which had limited colonizers to Catholics; London, the scrappy underdog, expanded this favored class to Europeans of various stripes under the banner of « whiteness », which in turn facilitated the mass enslavement of Africans allowing for the rise of capitalism.
You wrote “The Counter Revolution of 1836: Texas Slavery & Jim Crow and the Roots of American Fascism”. In this book, you studied fascism in Texas. Nevertheless, fascist and far-right movements are making a comeback in Europe and the United States. In your opinion, what are the reasons for this?
Part of the reason is that the US and their allies were much too expert in destabilizing unions and various working class formations, especially of the left and like a seesaw this allowed for the rise of the right.
With the neoliberal offensive, social regression and the absence of combative trade unions that we’re experiencing today, how do you think we can build a major workers’ movement that defends the interests of the working class?
There is no alternative to struggle, not least across borders and continents.
In your book “The Counter-Revolution of 1776: Slave Resistance and the Origins of the United States of America”, you totally demystify the history of the United States. In your opinion, isn’t the United States the fruit of a historical lie?
Absolutely, yes! 1776 was not intended to include Africans nor the Indigenous so, yes, the US has been built on a lie.
Can we talk about concepts such as “democracy” in countries like the USA, built on capitalism, slavery, colonization and fascism? Isn’t the USA a fascist country?
The U.S. is not fascist–yet… Trend lines toward fascism in the US are evident: Political violence (see today’s NYTIMES); class collaboration involving workers aligned with elites; withering racism and misogyny.
Your works encourage us to re-read Frantz Fanon. Isn’t Frantz Fanon a major key to understanding your revolutionary ideas? Doesn’t resistance to imperialism, the supreme stage of capitalism, require us to read Fanon and draw inspiration, among other things, from the struggle of the Algerian people, who freed themselves from French colonialism at the cost of great sacrifice? What remains of the pan-African movement?
Fanon is essential and plays a major role in my book to be published in June: ‘Armed Struggle?’
You’ve written about the conflict in Ukraine, blaming NATO and the USA. Didn’t the seeds of this conflict lie in the break-up of the Soviet Union?
Absolutely. The collapse of the USSR warped the global correlation of forces and unduly emboldened NATO but to reach this point US imperialism cut a deal with China leading to the current crisis.
As you know, the Palestinian people are suffering genocide at the hands of Israel, supported by the USA. In your opinion, what will be the impact of this war on the next presidential elections in the United States, knowing that we are witnessing a large student protest movement against this genocide in many American universities?
Impact of this movement has yet to reveal itself in terms of presidential elections. It is fair to assume that Biden will be wounded but it is unclear if this will benefit Trump.
Interview realized by Mohsen Abdelmoumen
Who is Gerald Horne?
Dr. Gerald Horne is an American historian and professor of history and African-American studies at the University of Houston, Texas. His research focuses on issues of racism in various fields involving labor, politics, civil rights, international relations and war. He has also written extensively on the film industry. Dr. Horne’s undergraduate courses focus on the civil rights movement and U.S. history through film. He also teaches graduate courses in Diplomatic History, Labor History and 20th Century African American History. Dr. Horne uses a variety of teaching techniques that enrich his classes and motivate students to participate.
Dr. Horne is the author of over thirty books and a hundred articles and scientific reviews. He writes on subjects he perceives as distorted struggles for justice; in particular communist struggles and struggles against imperialism, colonialism, fascism, racism and white supremacy. Gerald Horne is a Marxist.
His books include: Storming the Heavens: African Americans and the Early Struggle for the Right to Fly (2017) ; The Apocalypse of Settler Colonialism: The Roots of Slavery, White Supremacy and Capitalism in Seventeenth Century North America and the Caribbean (2018) ; The Counter-Revolution of 1836: Texas Slavery, Jim Crow and the Roots of U.S. (2022) ; et Fascism and Revolting Capital: Racism and Radicalism in Washington, D.C., 1918-1968 (2023).
